Obama and Israel: Punishing Your Friends, Rewarding Your Enemies

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Punishing Your Friends, Rewarding Your Enemies

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U.S. President Barack Obama's May 19 Middle East speech was significant in crucial respects.

In the speech he called for Israel to return to the borders it had before the 1967 war (with minor adjustments) so Israel and the Palestinians can finally have a lasting peace.

In rational circles, this is called punishing your friends and rewarding your enemies.

What was life like in Israel before the 1967 Six-Day War? Israel is tiny and vulnerable—that’s why Arab armies have massed against it, threatening Israel with extinction in several wars. Pre-1967 Israel was only about 12 miles wide in some places!

Some of you are old enough to remember the situation in Israel before 1967. Syria held the Golan Heights and regularly used farms and settlements in northern Israel for artillery target practice. The Egyptian-controlled Sinai Desert and the Jordanian-controlled Jordan Valley were sieves through which terrorists regularly infiltrated to carry out attacks on Israel while the Egyptian and Jordanian armies looked the other way.

In May 1967 Egypt blockaded the Israeli outlet to the Red Sea from the port of Eilat, which was an internationally recognized act of war, and Israel had enough. In six days its army captured the Golan Heights from Syria, the West Bank from Jordan and the Gaza Strip from Egypt.

Those who are terminally naïve and live in a fantasy world believe that if only Israel would return those lands, peace would miraculously blossom in the Middle East.

A brief history lesson is in order.

Some of you remember the PLO—Palestine Liberation Organization—made famous by its terrorist leader, Yassir Arafat. It was founded in 1964—three years before the 1967 Six-Day War.

Question: Which “Palestine” was the “Palestine Liberation Organization” founded to “liberate” when it formed in 1964?

Answer: It sure wasn’t founded to “liberate” the Golan Heights (controlled by Syria in 1964), the West Bank (controlled by Jordan in 1964) or Gaza (controlled by Egypt in 1964).

It was formed to “liberate” all of the Holy Land from the presence of Israel. That has been the unflinching goal ever since.

If you look up the PLO emblem on the Internet, you'll notice that it includes an outline map covering all of the so-called “Palestinian territories” plus the entirety of the land of Israel.

The PLO is a confederation of organizations, the most well known being Yassir Arafat’s Fatah and its chief rival, Hamas. Fatah rules the West Bank and Hamas rules the Gaza Strip.

You can also look up the Hamas emblem on the Internet. You'll notice that it includes crossed swords, the Dome of the Rock (in Jerusalem) and an outline map at the top which again includes all of the so-called “Palestinian territories” plus the entirety of the land of Israel.

Just last month Hamas and Fatah agreed to join forces to form a joint government and present a common front in dealing with Israel. Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by the United States, the United Kingdom, the European Union, Canada and Japan. Hamas controls the Gaza Strip, from which rockets and mortar shells have been continually fired into Israel since Israel’s 2005 withdrawal. Their latest outrage was when they fired an anti-tank missile at a clearly marked Israeli schoolbus, injuring the driver and one teenage student (who died of his wounds 10 days later). 

Lest we forget, in the year 2000 Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak offered Yasser Arafat about 95 percent of the territory Arafat said he wanted, but Arafat refused. Why did he not take it then? Apparently, we learned later, because Arafat feared he would’ve been assassinated by his own countrymen if he dared to compromise even that little bit with Israel.

And these are the people Israel is supposed to be making peace with? Again, this is called punishing your friends and rewarding your enemies.

The President's speech included one more especially ominous quote. He said, “Israel must be able to defend itself—by itself—against any threat.”

Israel has long been America’s only reliable ally in that part of the world. The only one. It is the only genuine democracy in a region dominated by tyrants of every stripe. In earlier wars when Israel was threatened with extinction, previous U.S. presidents intervened to supply Israel with munitions (but no military personnel) to prevent Israel from being overrun by armies that outnumbered them many times over. Despite this longstanding history and outward assurances of continued U.S. support, this seems to be a clear message that the Obama administration is willing to throw Israel under the bus in the vain hope of some fantasy-land “peace” process that will never come to pass in this lifetime.

If these statements in the President's speech stand, and if they truly represent the position the U.S government is taking toward Israel, we may be seeing the beginning of the end of Israel as we know it. It's hard to imagine how the stakes could get much higher.

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Comments

  • ucgadmin

    Hello everyone. Thanks for the great participation on this subject! It seems like everybody has stated their opinion and this is turning into more of a debate.

    We could certainly go on forever on this subject, but it becoming less and less a constructive argument.

    We're closing this to further commenting. We look forward to everyone's participation in other discussions.

  • Eric V. Snow

    Let's put some context to the routine moral condemnations of Israel concerning its treatment of the Arabs under its rule: Compared to other Arab and Muslim countries, do the Israelis have a better human rights and human development record concerning its Arab citizens and those under its rule (sort of) in the "semi/formerly" occupied territories? For example, the average Arab Israeli family of four makes $14,400 while it comes in at $9,400 in Jordan, which isn't much different from the rest of the Arab world, excepting the oil rich sheikdoms on the Persian Gulf. From 1967 to 1993, the number of Arabs in the "occupied" territories tripled to 3 million, their incomes tripled, and their life expectancies rose from 52 to 73 years. Meanwhile in the area that Jordan had previously stripped of Jews there were now only 250,000 Jewish settlers. George Will coolly observed, when Turkey tried to break the Israeli blockade of Hamas-controlled Gaza with a small flotilla, "Turkey was claiming to bring humanitarian aid to Gaza, a land with higher incomes and longevity than Turkey itself."

    On the other hand, let's take a look at the human rights record of Israel's Arab neighbors: Would have the Palestinians been better treated had they been ruled by fellow Arabs instead of by Jews? That's not altogether obvious. It's likely that Assad killed more of his own people in Hama (some 10,000 to 25,000) than Palestinians have been killed during the war of Independence and both Intifadas (c. 10,000). Let's consider what the (Muslim) Turks did to the (Christian) Armenians only a generation before Israel became independent: Up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed by the Turks, which is twice as many Palestinians who were displaced in c. 1948. Around 200,000 Muslims have been killed fighting in Algeria in recent years. When we survey all the nasty regimes in the world, such as China's, but think that so many more condemnations are issued against Israel by comparison (such as measured by proposed and passed UN resolutions), it's plain that this grossly disproportional attention to Israel's human rights violations is based on anti-Semitism. If I had a neighbor who constantly told me about another neighbor beating his wife, but then I later found out that he neglected to mention another neighbor (a friend of his) was a mass murderer, I could safely conclude he was biased.

    The "right of return" claim isn't hardly advocated on behalf of any other displaced group: Should we hand back Indiana to the Indians? Should the Germans return to Silesia? Furthermore, much of this displaced group left even when the Jews asked them to not leave (such as in the case of Haifa) and/or wouldn't have left except for 5 Arab armies promptly invading Israel almost the moment it declared independence. That is, few or no Palestinians would have been displaced if the Arab nations nearby hadn't attacked Israel. Furthermore, around the same time there are about an equal number of Jews who got thrown out of various Arab and Muslim countries of the Middle East, often with little more consideration than the Palestinians received, who fled to Israel.

    So then, does the breaking of the Golden rule and the Sermon of the Mount's injunctions inspire an equal or greater number of condemnations of the Arab/Muslim countries near Israel? It's fine to condemn oppression by anyone anywhere, but if (say) 90% of someone's emotional energy, writings, etc., is devoted to condemning Israel's human rights violations, then there's plainly some kind of lack of balance and/or bias involved. Furthermore, there's always the unpleasant reality that Romans 13 holds for all of us who are too influenced by (say) the beliefs of America's Founding Fathers: All rebellions against one's own government are sinful. There's no such thing as a "right to self-determination" in revealed scripture that can be enforced by (well) force.

  • Durango

    The various opinions on this discussion board raises a question in my my mind...that being

    Does the Bible indicate if a Christian and or those who wish to follow Christian principles should abstain from tacitly advocating for any party embroiled in a controversey rife with bloodshed? Unless it is in a very diplomatic manner ?

    Can that be considered tacit participation? Because such a problem has not and most probably wont be resolved by only men

  • Durango

    I am not upset with anyone personally - I am upset with injustice. As should any fair-minded objective person.

    Being that we are all brethren since we all share a common ancestor - it is important to be concerned with the suffering and injustice against all our brothers;

    Im as concerned at the injustice against the Jews by the the Nazis and the war crimes committed against then as much as I am upset by the injustices against the Palestinians by Zionist leaders as well as war crimes they have committed, and I am just as upset by the exploitaion of Blacks in Africa by those who wish to exploit their resources (ie the Diamond industry etc.) - the crimes being committed against them are nothing less than demonically inspired...

    All peoples/nations are deserving of reveiew, empathy and assitance with evils being perpertrated against them -- we all have feelings dreams, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers,sons,& daughters.

    I'm not sure if you are deliberately misconstruing what I have written because you may be a supporter of Zionism or if you are misunderstanding what I have written. _ I know I have quite a few spelling errors sicne I am writing from my Ipod.

    Yet I believe I have made a clear disticntion in my comments that I support Jews, yet I dont not support the illegal acts of a Zionist regime,

    There are even many Isrealis who speak out against the human rights violation of their own government - even many Israeli soldiers have refused to carry out orders.

    All professing Christians should be concerned with such injustices - especially when even the heathen can percieve injustices.

    Didnt Jesus say to judge rightly ? Didnt Jesus give an lesson on brotherhood in the story of the Good Samaritan? The older I become the clearer and more important the application of that lesson becomes to me.

    I try to love all people - Jews, Palestinians, White, Black etc.

    I am vehemently opposed to any person putting a wrong "spin" on scripture. Throughout history putting a "spin" on scripture has been done,either deliberately or due to being misguided,to "legitimize" governments, wars, exploitaion and slavery -- wouldnt you agree?

    Putting a spin on any scriptural promise to legitimize any injustices carried out against the Palestnian people would be to take such versus out of context and distort them -- and this is wrong in my opinion.

    And I dont think that is the intention of those promises.

    I recently read Pastor General Herbert W. Armstrong's article regarding Israel and the Arab-Israeli conlict written in June 1948 entitled:
    "Jews Are A Nation Again ....Prophecy Fulfilled?"

    --Mr. Armstrong was fairminded and critical from a Biblical point of view in the aforementioned article. After reading it, I have more of a respect for Mr. Armstrong as being fair and reasonable in his judgments. He seemed to be genuinely concerned with this problem with having an empathy, repsect and compassion for all both parties.

    Mr. Armstrong didnt mince words in the article - her referred to the "human efforts" to regather Israel as a:

    " blundering human effort to do for themsleves, before the time, what they will have G_d o do for them."

    Mr. Armstrong also states in that same article:

    "And this present movement, setting up a nationof Jews, and calling it 'ISRAEL,' can only lead to more bloodshed and more troubles!" - (emphasis by article's author Herbert W. Armstrong.

    In the full article Mr. Armstrong gives the position of both sides which I believe was pretty fair -- Mr. Armstrong comes across like a diplomat, trying to be fair to both sides. You should also consider that there are plenty of reliogious Orthodox Jews"in Israel" that are very critical of the Israeli government. I dont believe that Jews are being preserved with all this conflict.

    So, I'm pretty sure you and I will continue to have differing opinions on this subject. But what if you and anyone else on this board will take the time to read Mr. Armstrong's aforementioned article on this subject. Perhaps you may modify your position - I dont know.

    Peace to you

    Durango

    P.S. Not that is relevant at all - but I believe I do have Jewish ancestry on my maternal grandparents side and I have from childhood had many good experineces with Jewish people in the medical profession (pediatricians) and in the loan industry; and I hope G_d blesses them all for the kindness they have demonstrated towards me in the past.

  • Kathleen Hoffart

    Durango,

    I've read your posts again and I'm not sure if you are upset with Zionists or Jews or Israel or all who believe that the state of Israel has a special relationship with America.

    To quote Shlomo Avineri in today's Ha'aretz, ". . . In the final analysis, there is a historical truth. And without ignoring the suffering of the other, that is how such sensitive issues must be taught. "

    The historical truth is that America has had a special relationship with the Jewish people and later the state of Israel dating back to colonial times.

    Now have we always agreed? No, but much like an older brother taking care of the younger, America for the most part has watched over the Jewish people. But there were times when Israel did not know if it could depend on the United States.

    As Mr. Ashley points out, do you really believe peace would descend on the region if Israel returned the Occupied/Disputed Territories? Israel withdrew from Gaza five years ago - today Hamas turned downed Israel's offer to swap approximately 1,000 Palestinian prisoners for one, yes - one, IDF solder.

    I, for one, believe that there is a spiritual connection between America and Israel. And I'm not thrilled when my leader decides to change American policy and take away Israel's negotiating power.

    Caroline Glick in today's Jerusalem Post writes, "What this means is that – as was the case in May 1967, when the combined Arab armies gathered with the express purpose of wiping the Jewish state off the map – today again, Israel is alone at its hour of greatest peril. All of the lesser threats now gathering from Egypt, the Palestinian Authority, Syria, Lebanon and Turkey will become insurmountable if Iran becomes a nuclear power."

    That is today's truth. Israel needs our help, not our condemnation.

  • Durango

    Lena - I belief you are understating the gravity of what has been going on in that land for decades now -- "mean and hurtful" dont begin to adequately describe what is essentially unjust, murderous and borderline genocide. You diminish the suffering of our fellowmen - the Palestinians. They are sons, brothers, mothers, daughters with lives well established in that region.

    Of course it is true....

    Every human being truly needs G_d's forgiveness, yet that does not mean supporting that government by calling them "a blessing" for those they have been systematically opressing. I think the Bible indicates what Jesus' reply was to them in antiquity - he said they stoned and killed the prophets and servants sent unto them.

    The Bible indicates that Grace will be poured out upon them -- But why do you think that is? It wont be because of their spectacular farming practices.

    What do you think G_d thinks about what is going on there ... Do you think he is cheering on the Zionists to bulldoze more houses to defenseless civilians ?

    Love your neighbor isnt suspended by virtue of the tribe you were born into

    I always go back to the story of the Good Samaritan. Its such a pivotal lesson of wisdom that should be applied by all people not just professing christians. So many conflicts could be eradicated by applying that one lesson alone by Jesus. The older i become the more I begin to understand why Jesus kept underscoring this truth. The 1st century disciples gave their for this truth - Glory be to G_d.

    I try to love ally fellowmen - Jew - Palestinian etc. But I do not love injustice or ignoring injustice on either side because it only will fuel continued strife /violence by giving the impression of being unreasonably partial - Jesus said to judge rightly. One must feel empathy and compassion for the Palestinians if one is truly to practice the belief that we are all loved the same by the Creator- Palestinians lives count just as much as Jewish lives.

    The only one true judge with absolute complete knowledge is G_d - Holy and Blessed be his divine name forever .

    Peace be unto you

  • Durango

    Every human being truly needs G_d's forgiveness, yet that does not mean supporting that government by calling them "a blessing" for those they have been systematically opressing. I think the Bible indicates what Jesus' reply was to them in antiquity - he said they stoned and killed the prophets and servants unto them.

    The Bible indicates that Grace will be poured out upon them -- But why do you think that is? It wont be because of their spectacular farming practices.

    What do you think G_d thinks about what is going on there ... Do you think he is cheering on the Zionists to bulldoze more houses to defenseless civilians ?

    Love your neighbor isnt suspended

    I always go back to the story of the Good Samaritan. Its such a pivotal lesson of wisdom that should be applied by all people not just professing christians. So many conflicts could be eradicated by applying that one lesson alone by Jesus

    I trty to love allmy fellowmen - Jew - Palestinian etc. But I do not love injustice or ignoring injustice on either side because it only will fuel continued strife /violence by giving the impression of being unreasonably partial. One must feel empathy and compassion for the Palestinians if one is truly to practice the belief that we are all loved the same by the Creator- Palestinians lives count just as much as Jewish lives.

    Only one true judge with absolute complete knowledge is G_d - Holy and Blessed by his divine name forever .

  • Lena VanAusdle

    @Durango, you seem to have read a lot about why the state of Israel is evil, and you seem to have your mind made up about the entire situation, but you don't seem to be taking the time to read and really listen to what other people are saying. One thing no one is claiming is that the state of Israel is innocent. It is not, but that can be said of any human government.

    You speak of human rights violations by Israel, why are you not speaking of the human rights violations occurring in the Arab countries? Why are you not speaking of honor killings that occur in every single Arab nation (truthfully all over the world), but it is in the Arab nations where it isn't punished. Or the human rights violations of 9, 10, and 11 year old girls being sold by her parents under the guise of marriage? Why are you not speaking of the many women stuck in prison in the Arab world, when their only crime was to be a victim of rape or to have been seen speaking to a male? Or about the fact that countries like Sri Lanka, Indonesia and the Philippians are slowing the amount of citizens they allow to go to the Arab world because so many are turned into virtual slaves and are raped and/or beaten?

    This debate could go on forever, and if we have that much anger in our hearts we could spend our entire lives listing the evils that governments have committed, but what is the point? What does that gain us? Human beings do mean and hurtful, and stupid things every single day. That is the very reason that Christ NEEDS to return. Vilifying one or the other, what's the point? It makes no difference. Each human being is a potential son or daughter of God, and therefore worthy of our compassion, our love, and our forgiveness.

  • Durango

    Also, Im sure King Herod and the Pharisees brought commerce and productivity to Judea in the first century A.D. but that doesnt mean one should advocate for them at all and we all know why - they werent a blessing.

  • Durango

    They were a blessing ? Maybe you should quote from a Palestinian source and not from a pro-Zionist source that distorts the reality.

    I would hardly think that any Palestinian would call what the Zionists have done to them a blessing...regardless of farming practices

    Why do some people insist on whitewashing the atrocities committed by Zionists by calling them a "blessing" because of farming practices, why inisist on ignoring all the illegal acts committed by them against, not only, the Palestinians
    but the UNited states as described in the above posts.

    They ran the Palestinians off their land illegally in violation of international law.

    The Fourth Geneva Conventionof 1949 establishes that its illegal to seize land and displace its inhabitants.

    Are you trying to justify the illegal acts comitted by Zionist political movement because of what is written in the Bible?

    Do you really believe what is written by the Creator in the Bible entitles Zionists to violate international law and human rights; I dont believe that any scripture concerning the promises is intended to give them such a right at all. Remembers Zionism is a political movement created by atheists not adherents of the tenets of Judaism.

    Where does the Bible say one must support Zionism?

    This seems to be encouraging that sentiment. Tell me if Im wrong... because i surely dont believe that any scripture of prophecy or other portion of the Bible would ever encourage such a thing.

    The Bible advocates justice and predicts human behavior because of the predictability of human inability to execute real justice...Would any of the first century Christians be cheering on Zionism?

    I highly doubt it

  • Eric V. Snow

    There's an interesting article in the June 2011 "American Spectator" by George Gilder that describes how the modern, more productive agricultural methods of the Jewish Zionist settlers made it possible for the Arab population to greatly increase. When the Ottoman Empire ruled the area (which meant the imperialist Turks ruled over the Arabs) the population of "Palestine," meaning Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza, was between 200,000 and 300,000. This same area today has around 5.5 million Arabs in the former British Mandate area. They also now live on average 70 years, which is much longer than they did 150 years ago. The Jewish settlers improved poor quality farm land so that many more people, including Arabs, could live on it. Walter Clay Lowdermilk, an expert on land usage who worked for the U.S. Soil Conservation Service, described in his 1944 book how the Jewish settlers had hugely improved Palestine's farm land so many more people could live there. For example, in the area called Peta Tikva, Jewish settlers (starting in 1878) started to improve the swampy, mosquito ridden area outside of Tel Aviv by draining swamps, planting Eucalyptus trees to absorb moisture, importing lots of quinine, and planting lots of fruit trees. By the time Lowdermilk visited in 1939, an area that had only 400 fever-ridden Arab farmers 60 years earlier supported 20,000 people. In general, the 500,000 Jewish settlers who arrived before 1948 made it possible for a large surge in Arab population because of the former's modern agricultural techniques. In many cases, when Jewish overpaid for the relatively small amount of land that they did buy, their funds provided capital for the Arab landowners to modernize and expand their own operations as well. Wages for Arab workers in what later became Israel were twice what was paid in Syria, Jordan and Iraq, according to a 1936 British Royal Commission Report. The relatively backwardness of Jordan compared to what became Israel makes it clear how much Jewish settlement had held the area economically. Jordan's agricultural output and per capita consumption of imports was 1/5 those of Israel/Palestine, and its population density was only a 1/10 as high despite having similar climatic conditions. Indeed, the Arab general death rate in the Palestinian Mandate area fell by 1/3 and infant mortality fell by 37%. The Chosen People, even when religious skeptics, were still a blessing to the local Arabs when they moved in.

  • Durango

    A. Jay Cristol -- I looked him up. I would hardly say that he is a person who is objective; and I'm being kind from what I have read about him.

    There are too many facts already discovered to undue the truth about Israeli governments attacks on US military etc. You cant explain away facts - see below qoute regarding Isralei IAF knowing it was an American ship.

    Again I see this conflation going on by some - conflating supporting Jewry with Zionism -

    Also the most up to date information, not surprisingly, contradicts A.Jay Cristol - who is not objective.

    see:

    "On October 2, 2007, The Chicago Tribune published a special report[6] into the attack, containing numerous previously unreported quotes from former military personnel with first-hand knowledge of the incident. Many of these quotes directly contradict the U.S. National Security Agency's position that it never intercepted the communications of the attacking Israeli pilots, claiming that not only did transcripts of those communications exist, but also that it showed the Israelis knew they were attacking an American naval vessel."

    Also --do you know who Mordechai Venunnu is ...
    he was an Israeli Jew who informed on Israel having nuclear weapons contrary to law;
    he was kidnapped by Israeli govt who went to seize him in Britain - and he was jailed or betraying Israel -

    Israeli govt put him into solitary confinement where they continually kept light om on his his room so he would be sleep deprived --
    while in jail Vennunu says he converted to Christianity and claimed - it was only Jesus that kept him alive through his ordeal of solitary confinement and years in prison -- he was released a few yrs ago and it made headlines in some newspapers.

    This website says a Christians should not support any worldly goverments - maybe this is one of the reasons why --

    Not that Im singling Israel out since I know in Muslim countries its also illegal..but ...

    Isnt it against the law in Israel to preach Jesus in the street? I'll get the exact law in next post but I believe you can get up to 5 years in an Israeli prison --
    well, reagrdless, it will happen anyway....

  • Durango

    @khoffart

    I've been reading more about Israeli acts - actually the Israeli terrorist attack of The Lavon Affair" in the 1950's preceded the attack by Israel on the American ship the US Liberty.

    The Lavon affair was covered by the Jerusslem Post. The govt. of Israel sent agents to terrorize, target and bomb U.S movie theatres and libraries in Egypt - then the Israeli terrorist cell was captured. Israeli govt fraudulently tried to incriminate and blame Egypt in a bid to provoke the US to attack Egypt. The Jerusalem post covered the story where Israel had to admit what they had done. Rather cunning but not very surprising.
    They were discovered amd Israel had to admit their culpability. The Israeli terrorists have even been honored decades later by Israeli govt. Pretty sick.

    Then in 1967 came IAF ISRAELI air force attscks on American soldiers of the USS liberty. IAF DROPPED Napalm on Ametican soldiers and then tried to torpedo the ship. The well know Haaretz newspaper covered the story with the headline " Israeli Communications said to prove IAF knew Libert was a U.S. Ship"

    You can go to Haaretz dot com to look it up. It was written by Yossi Melman a Haaretz correspondant.

    And again in the USS liberty incident Israeli govt tried to fraudulantly blame Egypt. So they knew it was an American ship- i think its beyond dispute.

    Not very reassuring this " relationship"

    I dont find hard to believe - the news sources are Jewish by the way

    So.....

  • Durango

    @khoffart

    I've been reading more about Israeli acts - actually the Israeli terrorist attack of The Lavon Affair" in the 1950's preceded the attack by Israel on the American ship the US Liberty.

    The Lavon affair was covered by the Jerusslem Post. The govt. of Israel sent agents to terrorize, target and bomb U.S movie theatres and libraries in Egypt - then the Israeli terrorist cell was captured. Israeli govt fraudulently tried to incriminate and blame Egypt in a bid to provoke the US to attack Egypt. The Jerusalem post covered the story where Israel had to admit what they had done. Rather cunning but not very surprising.
    They were discovered amd Israel had to admit their culpability. The Israeli terrorists have even been honored decades later by Israeli govt. Pretty sick.

    Then in 1967 came IAF ISRAELI air force attscks on American soldiers of the USS liberty. IAF DROPPED Napalm on Ametican soldiers and then tried to torpedo the ship. The well know Haaretz newspaper covered the story with the headline " Israeli Communications said to prove IAF knew Libert was a U.S. Ship"

    You can go to Haaretz dot com to look it up. It was written by Yossi Melman a Haaretz correspondant.

    And again in the USS liberty incident Israeli govt tried to fraudulantly blame Egypt. So they knew it was an American ship- i think its beyond dispute.

    Not very reassuring this " relationship"

    I dont find hard to believe - the news sources are Jewish by the way

    So.....

  • Durango

    The USS Liberty incident was an attack on a United States Navy technical research ship, USS Liberty, by Israeli Air Force jet fighter aircraft and Israeli Navy torpedo boats, on June 8, 1967, during the Six-Day War.[2] The combined air and sea attack killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two Marines, and one civilian), wounded 170 crew members, and severely damaged the ship.[3] At the time, the ship was in international waters north of the Sinai Peninsula, about 25.5 nmi (29.3 mi; 47.2 km) northwest from the Egyptian city of Arish.[1][4]

    Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the identity of the USS Liberty.[5] Many of the survivors, in addition a few U.S. diplomats and intelligence officials involved in the incident, continue to dispute these official findings, saying the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was not a mistake,[6]

    and it remains "the only maritime incident in U.S. history where [U.S.] military forces were killed that was never investigated by the [U.S.] Congress."[7]

    In May 1968, the Israeli government paid US$3,323,500 as full payment to the families of the 34 men killed in the attack. In March 1969, Israel paid a further $3,566,457 in compensation to the men who had been wounded. On 18 December 1980, it agreed to pay $6 million as settlement for the U.S. claim of $7,644,146 for material damage to the Liberty itself.[8]

    Purportedly, on December 17, 1987, the issue was officially closed by the two governments through an exchange of diplomatic notes.

  • Durango

    @khoffart.

    Sure, i'll take a look af it. However, my undeestanding from readimg articles and hearing interviews makes it abundantly clear to me that the official Israeli govt excuse was just that -a "pretext" -excuse bc they didnt want the U.S. govt presence to interfere in the region, and thwart their illegal actions. The official government "spin" is typically NOT the reality. All this defense of the Israeli govt to me seems like s blind allegiance to Israel just because of an innapropriate misguided conflation of the secular philosophy of "Zionism" and "true Judaism".

    True Judaism as Jesus (May his Holy name be Blessed forever) practiced and purely taught was about true judgement-true justice, mercy and truth as well as forgivemess, reconciliation and brotherhood of all mankind.
    How can one have true justice if we turn a blind eye to obvious injustices of the modern state of Israel which has nothing to do with Judaism?

    Just as injustices carried out by organized jewry/the state was not a reflection of Judaism in antiquity the same holds true today; otherwise we would be conflating King Herod in antiquity with true Judaism and or organized Jewry that persecuted Jesus with true Judaism - And it is clear that combining of the two would cleatly be Wrong and miguided

    Supporting Jews is not the equivalent of any blind allegiance to the secular philosophy of Zionism-which has its basis in atheistic Darwinism. As you know im sure When Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan the Jews sought to stone Him.

    I believe they couldnt even begin to contemplate such a completely foreign concept scenario which was critical of physical children of Abraham and praising the morality of their enemy - a Samaritan - a Samaritan who was expressing the true intent of true Judaism. Naturally in their minds they were the physical children and had to always be right...any criticism of them was silenced by any means necessary.

    I'll take a look at your reccomendation, and I also propose a look at the book -- A Threat from Within - a History of Jewish Opposition to Zionism.

    Lastly - I am not against a Jewish state at all - only i want to recognize injustice - otherwise how can one accurately judge with mercy and equality to all our brothers.

    I dont believe that having a blind allegiance to Israel is the equivalent of supporting and sustaining Jews.

    Yet I fin

  • Kathleen Hoffart

    Lena, thank you for your comment on life in a rough neighborhood.

    Durango, since you introduced the USS Liberty - please read 'The Liberty Incident, The 1967 Israeli Attack on the U.D. Navy Spy Ship by A. Jay Cristol. The incident was tragic, not malicious.

  • Durango

    Remember the Levon Affair and the USS Liberty?

    I would hardly call that a committed friendly ally.

  • Durango

    @lena & all

    Is there a difference between Zionism and Judaism?

    Between the platform of Zionism and Judaism from holy writ of the Torah/Tanakh? Yes

    Zionism is a secular Jewish political movement proposed by Secular Jewish founders who were "atheists" I believe.

    The is a a huge distinction between Zionism and Judaism.

    Are you familiar with the Neturei Karta website ? These are Orthodox religious Jews who explain these distictions. Check it out.

    The book I refered to below is called " A Threat from Within - A History of Jewish Opposition to Zionism"

    There is a book written by religious orthodox Jews who actually practice Judaism and decry injustice and write regarding this subject.

    I have not read the book yet but am going to the NY public library to read since the hardcover book is expensive.

    Also in regards to wonership of land - you should consider that Palestinians who were driven from their homes still had the ownership "deeds" to their homes , so there is land aquired that was aquired in contravention to international law and UN resolutions.

    Also are you familair with how Palestinians are reffered to by Ariel Sharon and other Israeli govt officials ? Look it up - you may be surprised at what you discover.....

    Look up on youtube "The Philosophy of Israeli Zionism" its a very interesting video by religious Orthodox Jews that explain these distinction and is critical of Israeli Zionism

  • Lena VanAusdle

    Hi all! Sorry to jump in here in the middle (or end) of a conversation, but I thought I might be able to offer a unique perspective. Let me start with a disclaimer. #1. I am not an historian. #2. I am not an expert on the Middle East or Middle East Affairs. #3. I am not an expert in political science. Now that you all know what I am not, let me explain what I am, and why my two cents are worth at least that. I'm simply a girl who had the extreme blessing of living and working in the Middle East (and not in Israel) for 11 months. This incredible opportunity, made possible by the United Youth Corp and HRH Princess Sarvath al Hassan, was the honor of working in the Bunyat Centre for Special Education in Amman, Jordan. Now that you have my credentials.

    The first thing about the situation everyone must understand is this: there is no way any human government can create a lasting peace in the Middle East. Temporary cease fires or short lived bouts of peace are possible through human reasoning, but only with the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth will this problem be resolved.

    Secondly, NO ONE IS INNOCENT! And yet, both sides are "victims". They were both promised a sovereign homeland, unfortunately they were promised the same homeland! When the state of Israel came into being, it was at the behest and design of other countries. Further, the citizen's of most Middle Eastern countries are "victims" of their own governments. Some governments blame Israel so they don't have to take responsibility for their own corrupt and thieving governments. Israel blames everyone else because they have been persecuted since time immemorial.

    Thirdly, the argument isn't Jews vs. Muslims it is Israelis vs. Arabs. Arabs HATE the state of Israel, and do not recognize it as a sovereign nation. Before Israel became a nation there were Jews (and Christians) living in the area. They came there legitimately as immigrants. They bought land from the Arabs or joined with the Jews that were currently living in the area (THEY DID NOT STEAL THIS LAND)!

    Fourthly, Syria, Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, etc., as nations, do not care about the plight of the Palestinians any more than the Israelis do. They hate Israel, the Palestinians are simply a way of legitimizing their hate. Individual citizens of those countries, however, do care.

    While living in Amman a war broke out in the Gaza Strip. When my Jordanian (read: Palestinian since a huge portion of the Jordanian population is Palestinian) friends would ask me who I was for, I would say I'm for peace. It sounds trite, but it's the only way to acknowledge that no one is innocent in this fight, and to keep from picking sides.

    I don't blame Palestinians for being angry. I don't blame Israelis for being angry and defensive. Israel did not start the 1967 war, the Arabs did. Here is an analogy I used to explain the situation to some of my friends: if someone was walking around the school slapping students in the face at will, what would you do? Would you walk up, slap them in the face and tell them to stop? (equal force) Probably not. You are probably going to use whatever force necessary to stop them from hurting your friends. That's how I viewed the latest fighting in Gaza. Hamas was regularly sending over rockets into Israeli lands. Israel ignored them for awhile. Politely asked them to stop for awhile, and then they got fed up and sought out to destroy Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Who do we blame? The guy who picked the fight or the guy that won the fight? The same goes for the 1967 war. Do we blame the Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians for ganging up on Israel, or do we blame Israel for beating them? If we were in day care there is no question who we would be rooting for, and here's a hint, it wouldn't be the three bullies ganging up on the little kid.

    Finally, some of the warmest, kindest, most generous people you could ever meet live in Jordan, but their lives aren't being threatened daily. Some of the most cold and unfriendly people you could ever meet live in Israel, but their lives, and those of their families are being threatened every single day. I'd probably be a little wary of strangers too if everyone, (and thank you President Obama for this one), including my brother and closest ally turned their back on me.

    As human beings we cannot lose sight of the fact that even one death is too many, whether it comes at the hands of Hamas rockets or Israeli bombs. Thankfully, all of the those that have lost their lives in this bloody mess will have an opportunity to live again and experience true freedom and peace.